Tome Material Edit
What about games that use Tome material (the F&K kind) where everyone is raised to the power level of a wizard? (Note, I agree that the "Rogue" power level as defined on this wiki is the one that best suits games, but others do disagree, and I'm not sure if they're that wrong for their own games.) --Ghostwheel 23:15, September 18, 2009 (UTC)
- I remember seeing this somewhere? Nevermind. Anyway, It definitly belong here. I like it. --Jay Freedman 23:21, September 18, 2009 (UTC)
- Ok GW, you have asked a ridiculously subjective question, that I will attempt to answer in as non-relative a way as I can. But I have to get a couple of qualifications in first, because I want us to be on the same page. I do not believe that the Rogue level best suits games. The only power level that best suits your game is the one that does what you want it to. If you want a game where you can level up without actually changing the way the game is played (and don't want to play 4e for whatever reason), then you want a monk or fighter level game where no one breaks things by doing extensive optimization. I would even call the monk and fighter balance tiers the railroading tiers, but as plenty of people want to just play out a story or a module instead of make choices with their characters and choose their own paths that's probably fine for them. The fact that the DM has to do behind the scenes crap or under utilize monsters to keep everyone on the same page at higher levels doesn't help with the lack of options in this tier. If you want a game where the opposition changes, tactics change, and your options in the game world change (beyond those that the DM gives you by fiat like in the lower tiers), you want Rogue level. I won't sing it's praises, because it would be to the choir. If you want an even more cooperative game, where you have almost as much direct and indirect influence on the story as the DM, because you have counters for most of his non-arbitrary decisions, you want wizard level (and probably over level 10).
- What you want out of a game is the sole determinant of what power level you should be playing with and which one is the 'best' for you. Most of my games are run at rogue / wizard level (depending on what players want), but that doesn't make it the best one, just the one that best provides what I want in a game I'm going to put time into running. I'm playing in a fighter level game and enjoying myself (even if I am playing a scaled back cleric archer), because it's what works best for what the group wants (a vehicle to play out a story, not to jointly create one).
- Ok, one qualification down, on to the next. Not all of the material in the Tomes is wizard level, but all of it is at least rogue level. There is powercreep in the tomes. The classes up through Dungeonomicon are basically rogue level classes with less UMD dependence (a welcome change for me personally, as I detest that skill for its necessity), and they work fine in any rogue level game. The big change hit when they re-did feats and gave armor scaling bonuses, as those push classes like Tome Fighter off into crazytown. There's even an on-again, off-again argument over at TGD about whether the optimized tome fighter is better than a twinked wizard because of the feat interactions. So yeah, some of it is above rogue level, but most of it is fine before you toss in Races of War changes.
- That stuff out of the way, I think you were asking where the wizard level Tome stuff fit in terms of the SGT? It generally outperforms the SGT, and that's fine if that's what you want. It's designed to provide players with even more control over the story than rogue level options, and it does that. With respect to the SGT, a wizard level class probably has a 2:1 win/loss ratio, and makes these classes generally unsuitable to dungeon crawl, punch the monster in the face sorts of games. In games where the players are setting the agenda and the enemies are particularly cut-throat (including optimized MM entries), they work just fine. In games where you want more Rogue level stuff, just leave off the armors and scaling feats (the latter makes me slightly sad, but it's what you have to do).
- There we go, I think that answers your question regarding my views on the SGT and tome material. - TarkisFlux 01:14, September 19, 2009 (UTC)