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Talk:Fillipemariz/Divine Forsaker (3.5 Prestige Class)

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Worth A Variant?Edit

I know this was done to respect the author-centricity that we hold so dearly on this site (and rightly so), but as far as I can tell the only mechanical changes made to this class are some fast movement, and bonus damage that don't really fit the flavor of the class unless you're just trying to make the fact that it has to give up magical aid completely irrelevant by stacking on bonus after bonus. Not to mention the 10 bonus feats "for making natural magic items", which is an absolute mystery to me. It's not as if this PrC really needs help dealing doing what it's meant to do between the signature weapons, antimagic field, and ability score boosts. I just don't see anything new that really adds anything to an already-solid PrC. - TG Cid 18:49, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't really want to variant this up, but the author seemed rather insistent about their changes and wasn't responding to messages on their talk page. After STDoc weighs in on the changes I want to either merge this back in or split them off into an Alternate Class Feature package that doesn't carry a cost (since this is all just addition stuff anyway). There's just not enough unique stuff here for a full class writeup, and I don't think any of the regulars are dissatisfied enough with the current Forsaker to allow an adoption to go through if STDoc doesn't respond. If Fillipemariz wants to make more substantial changes, like reworking / removing existing features, then it might be worth keeping it up.
Anyway, I agree that the changes don't really work well in the spirit of the class with the possible exception of the movement. It's built around action denial instead of damage and not using special items at all, and the stuff that was added seems to be taking it in a fairly different direction. The movement stuff actually lets them get into range for their strikes a bit better, especially at levels where people are using boots and carpets and crap, so that's not as big a deal for me. - TarkisFlux 20:04, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
Why not just delete the page and tell Flipper to simmer down? If all he can contribute is the unwillingness to respect the work of others and a refusal to communicate, why allow him to simply do as he pleases?--Tavis McCricket 20:46, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
Gents, since I've read many articles (unoficials) about for saker, I was looking for the player conception for this classe, however following straight DnD rules even the amount of money that an epic would have at a centain LV, makes the for saker completly useless compared to any class. A friend of mine was about to start a Deity campaign and I spent many weeks creating the spreadsheet and balancing all character to this campaign where all would have LV 50 and Deity Rank 5 (demi-gods). I decided take a forsaker, but since the only version in place is the one of 3.0 and it never gets update to 3.5 and after some research via internet I found a forsaker very similar to the one that is helding by this page.
So we made up a LV 50 Forsaker Divine Rank 5, and it was a crap and we noticed that the lack of magical items really make it weak compared to any classe, dispite it "super habilites" first of all, what ever wich weapon a forsake held at some point I couln'd cause any damage agains a high DR since I have no weapon X/Adamantine/Magic/Epic or ever x/- as you maybe are aware you can buy 3/- DR with an Epic feat. Another issue for any Forsaker is the movement, and I don't meant combat movement, but unless he has a fly mount, he can't fly or move it self fast or even teleport it self.
Forsaker can't get heal and due it it can't stand for a long time in a exhaustive combat for this reason I have increase its Fast Healeing (just a feel). So make 2 spreadsheet one for a Epic (30) level mage or Warrior get all money that DnD says that an adventure at that level usually have and fight agains a forsaken and tell me is this is are not a useless class.
What I did editing the original one in this site was creating a viable class that could be useful as any classe, by not using any magic item. Magic itens in DnD can unbalance any class thus a class without magic itens should be a little better than any other and in future any forsaker will be weaker than any one in group (when people get Artifacts for example). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fillipemariz (talkcontribs)
Extrapolated over even 30 levels, let alone 50, this class should start to shit on anything that uses magical items due to the antimagic field which basically makes every high-level thing with magic items suck donkey balls. That's what balances it out, not the amount of damage it deals. Like Tarkis said, its emphasis is on action denial, so if you are doing a decent amount of damage while your level 30 wizard is doing next to nothing because his spells and items aren't working, the class is balanced and hardly useless (anything > 0, after all. The ramifications for that ability make it actually far surpass any class at such a ludicrous level, since you signature weapons are basically the equivalent of flat +10 enhancements if you take 20 levels of forsaker. Besides, not to be a spoilsport, but divine rank 5 is going to unbalance a game way more than any magic item ever could. - TG Cid 21:28, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
Tavis, he was unresponsive to talk page notes but emailed me via my link. And he's not doing what he wants on another author's page, which is basically fine for now. I'm deeply dissatisfied with the current solution though, but I'm giving it some time for things to sort themselves out in one of these ways (there might be more of course)
  • STDoc agrees with this stuff and wants to merge (which would be fine),
  • STDoc doesn't want to merge but more substantial changes get made to this page and it deserves to stand on it's own (which would also be fine, it's based on STDoc's work but it's all CC-BY-SA anyway),
  • No more changes get made, and I move these additions to an ACF page instead since I don't see adoption as viable in this case (though I could be wrong)
Really it's just cause he's new, and I'm willing to cut new guys a bit of slack on policy stuff. But this probably won't stand for long. - TarkisFlux 22:36, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
As for the any other class vs the forsaker, well, the first thing to note is that it's a rogue level class and we explicitly recognize that you don't keep up with some classes. But for the rest of the classes at it's level, well, they don't get a lot of tricks inside of the of an AMF. They don't get any healing, none of their item boosts, no weapon based damage boosts, no straight damage spells, etc. This forsaker is not an offensive class, and if you're going to compare offense you're going to be disappointed. But on defense, it's got a lot going for it and some sufficiently annoying status effect strikes that will keep attention on it instead of it being ignored in favor of easier targets. And it can use them with a bow at range, so it's not as concerned about battle mobility as other classes are (and could always use a flying mount if it really needed to). It shuts down other classes, it doesn't have to also kill them as fast as possible.
Looking at your changes, Lethal weapon is a relatively minor boost unless you have a TWF forsaker, in which case it's good times but doesn't make much sense to me. The fast healing boost isn't a big deal. The additional natural weapon progression is fine, as is the fast movement. I don't see any reason to give them a pile of bonus feats though, especially not "pick whatever you want" feats though, but then I don't think the class needs all the help that you do. Do you have any other changes planned? - TarkisFlux 22:36, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
About the Anti-magic field, I completely agree, it is Overpower, but I didn't creat it, actually I could take it of, but I confess, I like it a "Forsaker Beholder". About incoming changes, I'll just create the Divine Forsaker, but I have to read Deites and Demigods first and then I'll add it there.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Fillipemariz (talkcontribs)
You know, this is yours now. You can make whatever changes you like to it. And if there's enough of them and this becomes substantially different from the original, then it gets to stay and the other forsaker gets renamed into Forsaker, STDoc variant. There's room for it here, it just needs to follow our established policies. - TarkisFlux 00:04, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Bonus Feats Edit

I loled.--Tavis McCricket 22:03, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Natural Magic Items Edit

I have no idea what these are, nor how the class is supposed to make them without spell access of any sort, which is a pretty big mechanical failing. I also don't understand why a class that specifically doesn't use magic items would want to make some just because you've added the word "Natural" in front of them. - TarkisFlux 23:32, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

Well hello there.... Edit

It's good to see that I've... inspired someone to make a variant Forsaker. The others are definitely right. This really isn't an offensively based class. It would take a fair bit of optimization to make a Forsaker into a damage dealing monster. If you'd like some help building the class, while staying true to it's 3.0 roots, I'd be happy to help. Just drop me a line. STDoc 16:44, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Dude, I really like forsaken (I love class with self potetial that don't relly much and items) and I was makeing some tests, combo X combo in order to find out the forsaker weak point and I filled some in order to allow the can be useful without magic itens, but I it wasn't accepted but website since already exits. So I decided create a new lore and take those power as a base to make a entire new classes very similar, but different of forsaker, how I'not havinng enough time by now, but I'll finish it by the next week.
The class is already pretty powerful. I can understand the increased speed, which would help him get into position. As for granting more damage, It's a little out of place. I mean, this is a ten level Prestige Class, there's plenty more room for damage dealing potential, whether it's through Sneak Attack Dice (Ala the Sneak Attack Fighter, or the Generic Warrior's Bonus Feats), Or through getting more attacks per round than the average bear (Flurry of Blows/Snap-Kick, or Rapid Shot/Manyshot). STDoc 16:50, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

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