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(Further Optimization: largeness is good)
(Outline with roundabout kick)
 
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== References ==
 
== References ==
   
* Book of Vile Darkness (3.0) (Disciple of Dispater
+
* Book of Vile Darkness (3.0) (Disciple of Dispater 60)
* Tome of Battle (Warblade 10, Martial ?,
+
* Tome of Battle (Warblade 20, Martial Study 31, Aptitude weapons)
  +
* Dragon Magazine 353 (Whip Dagger 28)
   
 
== Game Rule Components ==
 
== Game Rule Components ==
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=== Items ===
 
=== Items ===
   
  +
Needed weapons:
  +
* Two Light Maces, graduate to
  +
* +1 Aptitude 18-20 one-handed and possibly off-hand as soon as affordable. Graduate to
  +
* +1 Aptitude Keen 18-20 one-handed weapon as soon as it is affordable, and possibly a similar off-hand weapon. By Disciple of Dispater 8, graduate to
  +
* +1 Aptitude Cold-Iron 18-20 one-handed weapon
   
  +
Also pick up a whip-dagger or two (19-20 crit, threatens 5-15', 1d6 slashing damage, does damage to armored foes, otherwise a whip, including for feats) at some point:
  +
* +1 Aptitude Cold-Iron Whip Dagger
   
 
=== Progression ===
 
=== Progression ===
   
'''Starting Ability Scores (Before Racial Adjustments):''' 15+ dex, 13+ Str, 13+ int
+
'''Starting Ability Scores (Before Racial Adjustments):''' 15+ str, 15+ dex, 13+ int
   
'''Race (Templates):''' Any really
+
'''Race (Templates):''' Human. Stongheart Halfling would require 17 str, which is more expensive to point buy.
 
''Starting Racial Traits:''
 
   
 
{| class="d20" style="text-align: left;" {{#vardefine: odd|0}}
 
{| class="d20" style="text-align: left;" {{#vardefine: odd|0}}
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! rowspan="2" | Class<br/>Features
 
! rowspan="2" | Class<br/>Features
 
! rowspan="2" | Special
 
! rowspan="2" | Special
  +
! colspan="2" | No-Sweep
  +
! colspan="2" | Sweep w/ Ember
 
|- style="text-align: center;"
 
|- style="text-align: center;"
! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]]
+
! [[SRD:Saving Throw#Fortitude|Fort]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Reflex|Ref]] || [[SRD:Saving Throw#Will|Will]] || Crit Immune || Critable || Crit Immune || Critable
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 1st || Warblade 1 || + || + || + || + || Weapon Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes<sup>1</sup> || <- class features gained -> || <- other stuff ->
+
| 1st || Warblade 1 || + || + || + || + || Weapon Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes<sup>1</sup>, Lightning Mace<sup>1</sup> || Weapon aptitude, Blood in the Water || Lightning mace gives you a measly 1.05 attacks/attack || 1 || 1.05 || N/A || N/A
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 2nd || Psychic Warrior 1 || + || + || + || + || Power Attack || <- class features gained -> || <- other stuff ->
+
| 2nd || Fighter 1 || + || + || + || + || Power Attack || || || 1 || 1.05 || N/A || N/A
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 3rd || Psychic Warrior 2 || + || + || + || + || Lightning Mace, Combat Expertise || <- class features gained -> || Lightning mace gives you a measly 1.05 attacks/attack
+
| 3rd || Psychic Warrior 1 || + || + || + || + || Improved Unarmed Strike, Roundabout Kick || || You're almost as good unarmed as with maces || 1 || 1.05 || N/A || N/A
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 4th || Psychic Warrior 3 || + || + || + || + || <- feat(s) -> || <- class features gained -> || <- other stuff ->
+
| 4th || Psychic Warrior 2 || + || + || + || + || Combat Expertise || || || 1 || 1.05 || N/A || N/A
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 5th || Psychic Warrior 4 || + || + || + || + || <- feat(s) -> || <- class features gained -> || <- other stuff ->
+
| 5th || Psychic Warrior 3 || + || + || + || + || || || || 1 || 1.05 || N/A || N/A
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 6th || War Mind 1 || + || + || + || + || <- feat(s) -> || <- class features gained -> || <- other stuff ->
+
| 6th || War Mind 1 || + || + || + || + || Martial Study (Distracting Ember) || || || 1 || 1.05 || N/A || N/A
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 7th || War Mind 2 || + || + || + || + || <- feat(s) -> || <- class features gained -> || You should be able to afford a pair of +1 aptitude falchions or similar. You do 1.17 attacks/attack.
+
| 7th || War Mind 2 || + || + || + || + || || || You should be able to afford a pair of +1 aptitude 18-20 weapons. You do 1.17 attacks/attack. || 1.18 || 1.41 || N/A || N/A
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 8th || War Mind 3 || + || + || + || + || <- feat(s) -> || <- class features gained -> || <- other stuff ->
+
| 8th || War Mind 3 || + || + || + || + || || || || 1.18 || 1.41 || N/A || N/A
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 9th || War Mind 4 || + || + || + || + || Disciple of Darkness || <- class features gained -> || <- other stuff ->
+
| 9th || War Mind 4 || + || + || + || + || Disciple of Darkness || || You're barely able to afford a +1 aptitude keen weapon. || 1.43 || 2.41 || N/A || N/A
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 10th || War Mind 5 || + || + || + || + || <- feat(s) -> || <- class features gained -> || Build barely starts to work. You do 1.42 times as many attacks, 1.17 with no sweep
+
| 10th || War Mind 5 || + || + || + || + || || Sweeping Strike || Build starts to work in many situations || 1.43<sup>2</sup> || 2.41<sup>2</sup> || 8.7<sup>2</sup> || Diverges<sup>2</sup>
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 11th || Disciple of Dispater 1 || + || + || + || + || || ||
+
| 11th || Disciple of Dispater 1 || + || + || + || + || || || || 1.43 || 2.41 || 8.7 || Diverges
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 12th || Disciple of Dispater 2 || + || + || + || + || || ||
+
| 12th || Disciple of Dispater 2 || + || + || + || + || Optional Feat || || || 1.43 || 2.41 || 8.7 || Diverges
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 13th || Disciple of Dispater 3 || + || + || + || + || || ||
+
| 13th || Disciple of Dispater 3 || + || + || + || + || || || || 1.43 || 2.41 || 8.7 || Diverges
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 14th || Disciple of Dispater 4 || + || + || + || + || || || Double threat range. You do 2.5 attacks per attack, 1.42 with no sweep
+
| 14th || Disciple of Dispater 4 || + || + || + || + || || || || 1.43 || 2.41 || 8.7 || Diverges
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 15th || Disciple of Dispater 5 || + || + || + || + || || ||
+
| 15th || Disciple of Dispater 5 || + || + || + || + || Optional Feat || || || 1.43 || 2.41 || 8.7 || Diverges
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 16th || Disciple of Dispater 6 || + || + || + || + || || ||
+
| 16th || Disciple of Dispater 6 || + || + || + || + || || || || 1.43 || 2.41 || 8.7 || Diverges
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 17th || Disciple of Dispater 7 || + || + || + || + || || ||
+
| 17th || Disciple of Dispater 7 || + || + || + || + || || || || 1.43 || 2.41 || 8.7 || Diverges
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
 
|- class="{{Odd-Even}}"
| 18th || Disciple of Dispater 8 || + || + || + || + || || || Triple threat range. You do 10 attacks per attack, 1.8 with no sweep.
+
| 18th || Disciple of Dispater 8 || + || + || + || + || Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip) || || Finally, triple threat range || 1.82 || 8.16 || Diverges || Diverges
  +
|-
  +
| colspan="13" |
  +
# Requires two flaws: shaky and one other
  +
# This is a threat range of 15-20, so it's also the behaviour of a whip-dagger after reaching Disciple of Dispater 8. Without triple threat range, a keen whip-dagger would be 1.25 / 1.64 / 2.44 / 4.55.
 
|}
 
|}
 
# Requires one or more flaws depending on race
 
   
 
=== Other Components ===
 
=== Other Components ===
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=== Further Optimization ===
 
=== Further Optimization ===
   
Become large to threaten more squares and make it easy to threaten two adjacent squares, even in a narrow hall.
+
* Increase attack bonus or number of attacks in a full round attack to get started more easily.
+
* Become large to threaten more squares
Add more attacks.
+
* Find a way to move as a free or immediate action without moving or add attacks that prevent opponents from moving.
+
* Convince your DM to let Disciple of Dispater's expanded threat range and 3.5 Improved Critical stack even though they don't, get a 12-20 critical, and diverge against non-critical immune foes without needing a sweep or an ember, and diverge against crit-immune foes even using a whip and ember.
Roundabout Kick from complete warrior can't be used because these aren't unarmed strikes, and an Aptitude Weapon still doesn't make unarmed strikes. The highest possible crit range for an unarmed strike in 3.5 is 17-20 with Improved Critical and Psychic Weapons Master. This gives a total extra attacks per attack with sweeping strike of (4/20+19/20*4/20)*2, or .78, for about 4.5 times damage, well shy of Disciple of Dispater's .9 for on average 10 times the damage. Unarmed strike with Improved Critical and Psychic Weapons Master may very well be more powerful due to the continued manifesting progression, but it will pick up Blood in the Water bonuses much more slowly, and requires a staggering number of feats; It might very well be impossible.
 
   
 
== Side Notes ==
 
== Side Notes ==
   
<- overview of additional info about this build ->
 
   
 
=== Limitations ===
 
=== Limitations ===
 
10 times damage every other round isn't that great, though Blood in the Water can get really good. Half of your extra attacks are wasted on the ember, or is that 10 attacks on target one - gotta think this one through, I think it is.? If so, Blood in the Water can be averaging +20 attack and damage off a single standard action attack.
 
   
 
DM Counters:
 
DM Counters:
   
* One square wide halls with no space to summon ember.
+
* Movement. Sweeping Strike can't be used if the war mind has moved more than 10' since the end of his last turn. This can be overcome a little bit by a 5' step, a 15' reach, and perhaps picking up another 5' of free movement somewhere, like Stalking Shadow. Movement+critical immunity is very bad for the war mind.
* Immunity to non-lethal damage.
+
* One square wide halls with no space to summon ember. This is overcome eventually using a whip-dagger, but not if the foe is immune to criticals.
* It's just a psychic warrior...
+
* Arenas or pits of exactly two adjacent five-foot squares.
  +
* Immunity to non-lethal damage. This is overcome eventually
  +
* Immunity to critical hits. This is eventually overcome using an ember, but not if there is no space to put one. Blood in the Water never gets a bonus from the Ember, so immune foes actually completely prevent bonus acquisition.
  +
* Anything that counters melee
   
 
=== Variants ===
 
=== Variants ===
   
<- Can something be switched for anything else? ->
+
* Take warblade later to get slightly better maneuver options and 2 fewer hitpoints.
  +
* Drop 8 levels of Disciple of Dispater for 7 of [http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d Psychic Weapon Master]. Requires a tremendous number of feats, has a smaller threat range of 8 instead of 9, and only has an expanded threat range on a single weapon, so no whip daggers.
   
 
=== Miscellaneous ===
 
=== Miscellaneous ===

Latest revision as of 00:11, June 8, 2010

Created By
Cedges (talk)
Date Created: 6/6/2010
Status: Draft
Editing: Please feel free to edit constructively!


Introduction Edit

Uses an increased critical threat range to do tremendous amounts of damage in 3.5.

References Edit

  • Book of Vile Darkness (3.0) (Disciple of Dispater 60)
  • Tome of Battle (Warblade 20, Martial Study 31, Aptitude weapons)
  • Dragon Magazine 353 (Whip Dagger 28)

Game Rule Components Edit

Spells, Powers, Soulmelds, Stances, etc... Edit

Distracting Ember, Blood in the Water

Items Edit

Needed weapons:

  • Two Light Maces, graduate to
  • +1 Aptitude 18-20 one-handed and possibly off-hand as soon as affordable. Graduate to
  • +1 Aptitude Keen 18-20 one-handed weapon as soon as it is affordable, and possibly a similar off-hand weapon. By Disciple of Dispater 8, graduate to
  • +1 Aptitude Cold-Iron 18-20 one-handed weapon

Also pick up a whip-dagger or two (19-20 crit, threatens 5-15', 1d6 slashing damage, does damage to armored foes, otherwise a whip, including for feats) at some point:

  • +1 Aptitude Cold-Iron Whip Dagger

Progression Edit

Starting Ability Scores (Before Racial Adjustments): 15+ str, 15+ dex, 13+ int

Race (Templates): Human. Stongheart Halfling would require 17 str, which is more expensive to point buy.

ECL Class/HD/LA Base
Attack Bonus
Saving Throws Feats Class
Features
Special No-Sweep Sweep w/ Ember
Fort Ref Will Crit Immune Critable Crit Immune Critable
1st Warblade 1 + + + + Weapon Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes1, Lightning Mace1 Weapon aptitude, Blood in the Water Lightning mace gives you a measly 1.05 attacks/attack 1 1.05 N/A N/A
2nd Fighter 1 + + + + Power Attack 1 1.05 N/A N/A
3rd Psychic Warrior 1 + + + + Improved Unarmed Strike, Roundabout Kick You're almost as good unarmed as with maces 1 1.05 N/A N/A
4th Psychic Warrior 2 + + + + Combat Expertise 1 1.05 N/A N/A
5th Psychic Warrior 3 + + + + 1 1.05 N/A N/A
6th War Mind 1 + + + + Martial Study (Distracting Ember) 1 1.05 N/A N/A
7th War Mind 2 + + + + You should be able to afford a pair of +1 aptitude 18-20 weapons. You do 1.17 attacks/attack. 1.18 1.41 N/A N/A
8th War Mind 3 + + + + 1.18 1.41 N/A N/A
9th War Mind 4 + + + + Disciple of Darkness You're barely able to afford a +1 aptitude keen weapon. 1.43 2.41 N/A N/A
10th War Mind 5 + + + + Sweeping Strike Build starts to work in many situations 1.432 2.412 8.72 Diverges2
11th Disciple of Dispater 1 + + + + 1.43 2.41 8.7 Diverges
12th Disciple of Dispater 2 + + + + Optional Feat 1.43 2.41 8.7 Diverges
13th Disciple of Dispater 3 + + + + 1.43 2.41 8.7 Diverges
14th Disciple of Dispater 4 + + + + 1.43 2.41 8.7 Diverges
15th Disciple of Dispater 5 + + + + Optional Feat 1.43 2.41 8.7 Diverges
16th Disciple of Dispater 6 + + + + 1.43 2.41 8.7 Diverges
17th Disciple of Dispater 7 + + + + 1.43 2.41 8.7 Diverges
18th Disciple of Dispater 8 + + + + Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip) Finally, triple threat range 1.82 8.16 Diverges Diverges
  1. Requires two flaws: shaky and one other
  2. This is a threat range of 15-20, so it's also the behaviour of a whip-dagger after reaching Disciple of Dispater 8. Without triple threat range, a keen whip-dagger would be 1.25 / 1.64 / 2.44 / 4.55.

Other Components Edit

<- anything not covered by the previous sections ->

Highlights Edit

<- How and why this build works, also a place to show off just what the build can do ->

Tactics Edit

If there aren't two opponents next to each other, summon a distracting ember next to one, and sweep both enemies or an enemy and an ember with an attack. Do non-lethal damage so you don't kill your ember. You slaughter creatures occupying two squares.

Further Optimization Edit

  • Increase attack bonus or number of attacks in a full round attack to get started more easily.
  • Become large to threaten more squares
  • Find a way to move as a free or immediate action without moving or add attacks that prevent opponents from moving.
  • Convince your DM to let Disciple of Dispater's expanded threat range and 3.5 Improved Critical stack even though they don't, get a 12-20 critical, and diverge against non-critical immune foes without needing a sweep or an ember, and diverge against crit-immune foes even using a whip and ember.

Side Notes Edit

Limitations Edit

DM Counters:

  • Movement. Sweeping Strike can't be used if the war mind has moved more than 10' since the end of his last turn. This can be overcome a little bit by a 5' step, a 15' reach, and perhaps picking up another 5' of free movement somewhere, like Stalking Shadow. Movement+critical immunity is very bad for the war mind.
  • One square wide halls with no space to summon ember. This is overcome eventually using a whip-dagger, but not if the foe is immune to criticals.
  • Arenas or pits of exactly two adjacent five-foot squares.
  • Immunity to non-lethal damage. This is overcome eventually
  • Immunity to critical hits. This is eventually overcome using an ember, but not if there is no space to put one. Blood in the Water never gets a bonus from the Ember, so immune foes actually completely prevent bonus acquisition.
  • Anything that counters melee

Variants Edit

  • Take warblade later to get slightly better maneuver options and 2 fewer hitpoints.
  • Drop 8 levels of Disciple of Dispater for 7 of Psychic Weapon Master. Requires a tremendous number of feats, has a smaller threat range of 8 instead of 9, and only has an expanded threat range on a single weapon, so no whip daggers.

Miscellaneous Edit

---- {{3.5e Optimized Character Builds Breadcrumb}} [[Category:3.5e]] [[Category:User]] [[Category:Optimized Character Build]]

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