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Talk:Superhero (3.5e Class)

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Balance Edit

Between UMD, full BAB, and spell access, I'd definitely say this one's wizard-level. --Ghostwheel 21:33, February 23, 2010 (UTC)

It has medium BAB (unless it's a captain) and 1 spell at a time. If he wants to pick a level appropriate spell, he has to set it on 1 round recharge and make it a full-round action to cast (unless it's an amazing, who can actually cast the same level appropriate spell every round from level 4 on), though after he has it for a level he can reduce one of those drawbacks. While that could very easily make him semi-awesome (if not an extremely one-trick pony), it's not wizard level. It's probably high rogue with good spell selection though, and low rogue otherwise. Fighter seems to be pretty strongly undervaluing it's ability to spam spells and cover other things with UMD. - TarkisFlux 00:37, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
I assumed that having a very limited set of abilities would mean that Superheroes would stay in high Fighter level, but I suppose you're right that the decent stats and skills can make up for failings in their limited magical firepower. --Foxwarrior 01:25, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
Imagine, if you would, Color Spray at will at level 3, or Glitterdust at will at level 5. I think that either would end most encounters right off the bat--isn't that one of the hallmarks of the wizard-level balance point? Heck, you could get them even lower if you modified them. I think this one needs an SGT--even at 10th level, I think he could beat most encounters with Glitterdust (and even the necromancer would have trouble against him, being unable to target him at all once he's blind). --Ghostwheel 01:32, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
Wizard level classes have the tools to shut down / avoid / render moot / 'do whatever to' challenges, of which combat is an admitedly substantial subset. Having one spell on hand, even an awesome spell like glitterdust or color spray, is only going to leave you able to shut down a subset of that subset, that being whichever subset has crappy saves against your chosen effect. Which is still really solid, hence why I suggested high rogue from my initial view of it. I'm not saying don't SGT it (though if you do you should assume the same spell chosen for all encounters since they don't get to swap except at level up), I'm just saying that being able to basically shut down a subset of combats because you have one good power and UMD is not the same as being wizard level. - TarkisFlux 01:49, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
At levels 1 and 2 the superhero is abysmally behind her companions. Her one trick isn't doing much in any fights against intelligent opponents, and it is worse than her contemporaries (if you are playing in 3.5e, this seems somewhat aimed at d20 modern, where it would be ridiculously overpowered compared to other classes), who are also knocking off a spell every round. I'd suggest default spell power of 2*spell level - 1 instead, but then you can get ridiculous things like the aforementioned color spray every round at level 1. Bard, Ranger, and Paladin spell lists list spells at lower levels than the other spell lists, which is going to kick in a big boost in power before level 10. At high levels it definitely runs into problems with Miracle, Limited Wish and Wish, though they might be a bit tricky to get into due to the school, subtype rule. There are a few other spells with similar abilities at lower levels that could be abused by casting a spell from an item.

There might be easy solutions to both problems: disallow spells that allow access to other spells in any way and adjust the spell power of spells with a save that negates, say +4, or make superpowers in general easier to save against, after all your enemies pretty much know what's coming and can be more prepared to dodge. The superhero class might also benefit from a notoriety class feature that grants a token bonus to diplomacy or intimidate, and warns the player that their opponents will know what they're up to. Their opponents can be given a knowledge (local) check to research the superhero, with information about her power's type or school being granted at DC 20. Spellcraft checks to identify the superhero's power should succeed automatically by the second time it's used. The superhero should be wary of foes with the Improved Counterspell feat. - Cedges 08:13, May 20, 2010 (UTC)
Color spray every round isn't a big deal at level 1. The problem is the first round, since after that the enemies can realize that they should stand back and spread out a bit, making Color Spray no better than a Greatsword. Numeric bonuses to saves and such on later rounds would not really improve the balance of this class: after all, your enemies are now quite likely to be aware of your limitations, and can act accordingly. I agree that I should nerf those wish things though. --Foxwarrior 19:44, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

Same Game Test: Summon Monster IV Edit

Taf, The Amazing Fiendfriend will attempt the SGT for level 10.

Power: Unlimited (-0), Summon Monster IV 4*2+1, shortened to a standard action +2, with increased range +1 = 12.
Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuring), Augment Summoning, Run, Fleet of Foot
Skills: Concentration, Move Silently, Escape Artist
Languages needed: Common, Abyssal, Infernal, Aquan, Ignan, Terran, Auran
Attributes: 8/18/14/9/14/8 (Dex 16 + 2 from leveling)
Mods: -1/+4/+2/-1/+2/-1
Hitpoints 64, Saves +5/+11/+5

Taf maintains a constant accoutrement of 10 monsters summoned from the summon monster IV list, or an average of 20 from the summon monster III list. His power has a range of 100 feet. His summonlings in general get +2 to attack, +2 to damage, and +2 to fort saves, and 2 extra hitpoints per hit die.

He has access to the following spells through summonlings (once per summoning, though sometimes a single monster can do multiples of these, or summoning multiple monsters can allow the spell to be used multiple times from a single casting of summon monster IV):

  • gust of wind (Air Mephit, DC14, 6)
  • wind wall (Dust Mephit, DC15, 6)
  • soften earth and stone (Earth Mepthit, 6)
  • scorching ray (Fire Mephit, DC14, 3)
  • heat metal (Fire Mephit, DC14, 6)
  • magic missile (Ice Mephit, 3)
  • chill metal (Ice Mephit, DC16, 6)
  • pyrotechnics (Magma Mephit, DC14, 6)
  • acid arrow (Ooze Mephit, Water Mephit, 3)
  • stinking cloud (Ooze Mephit, Water Mephit, DC15, 6) (1d3 Dretch, DC13, 2)
  • glitterdust (Salt Mephit, DC14, 3)
  • scare (1d3 Dretch, DC12, 2)

And the following multiple times per lantern archon: aid, detect evil, continual flame, light ray

Additional debuffs:

  • Mephits: -4 AC, -2 attack (3 different sources, can total -12 AC, -6 attack)
  • Howler quills, -1 attack, saves, and checks per quill.

Taf travels with one mephit of each type, summoned in the following order: ooze (itch), fire, ice (frostbitten), dust (itch), magma (burnt), water, salt (itch), air, steam (burnt), earth

  • >90% A hallway filled with magical runes. He never walks in front, his summonlings simply trigger all the traps for him, and he waltzes through. A loss if the traps are set so that he would trigger them but his minions wouldn't.
  • >80% A Fire Giant. Taf starts with 5 opportunities to debuff the giant at a reflex DC of 12 or 13. The giant fails half of these, takes about 8 damage, and ends up with about -4 AC, and -2 to attack. Taf summons an ice mephit if the giant hasn't yet been frozen and freezes it to -8 AC, -4 to attack. Taf moves each turn, and always keeps one or more mephits or howlers between himself and the giant to prevent charging, and, if necessary to open up space, runs. He summons howlers next to the giant, which immediately attack it full round, inflicting damage three quarters of the time and quills half the time. If the giant moves to engage taf or throws a rock he takes attacks of opportunity from the howlers. The mephits open up with their spells. The howlers fill the giant with quills until he is dead or can't attack at all.
  • 50-90% A Young Blue Dragon. Taf can survive one hit from the dragon's breath weapon. Taf and the mephits open with stinking clouds, which, if the dragon fails his fort (20%) practically guarantee victory. He summons a celestial giant eagle on top of the dragon, it grapples it if possible. He keeps throwing eagles at it and tries to bring it down. At the first convenient time, he summons a lantern archon near himself to benefit from +2 AC and saves vs the dragon and temporary hitpoints from aid. Taf is done as soon as he's grappled.
  • <1% A Bebilith. Neither Taf nor his mephits notice the bebilith. It recognizes his spellcasting behaviour (summoning the mephits), leaps out, grapples, and kills him. Taf might survive if he was accompanied by a lantern archon using detect evil.
  • <50% A Vrock. The vrock stuns the mephits if they are too close together. Taf summons lantern archons and prays. Taf goes down in flames with no way to stop the vrock from grappling him.
  • 0-50%. A tag team of Mind Flayers. Taf has a chance if he is aware of the mindflayers first, which is unlikely due to his practice of using summoned scouts. The mindflayers quickly turn his minions against him. He must dismiss his previous summons as quickly as possible or run away from them now that they oppose him. He can try to conceal himself from the mindflayers and summon 1d4 + 1 lemures where they will rampage towards the mindflayers. If they discover him he must run away as fast as he can, throwing lemures behind him.
  • 0-100%. An Evil Necromancer. I hate this one. I wish we had a standard evil necromancer.
  • 100%. 6 Trolls. Taf has no trouble matching the trolls numbers or overcoming their regeneration
  • 100%. 12 Shadows. Numbers.

Taf wins 46 to 78% of his fights, definitely in the rogue or wizard level. Cedges 02:55, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Nice build. Two biggest problems I see with it is that the DM might interpret Summon Monster IV as a spell that can imitate more than one other spell (since there is more than one spell that the collective group of summoned monsters can cast), and the rest of the party could get very annoyed by how you were slowing down their travels by spending half the time stopping to summon another creature. --Foxwarrior 18:23, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Doctor AbilityEdit

The doctor ability to get 5 extra class skills seems basically worthless without additional skill points to spend them on. 5 extra would be overkill, and even 4 is probably high since you get to choose the skills, but 2 would be nice, and put the ability more in line with the others. - TarkisFlux 00:37, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Class Balance Edit

I agree with the wizard level of balance, although the class starts slow, it picks up massive pace at later levels. For example, at 20th level an "Amazing" superhero has a spellpower of 22, allowing him to cast almost any 9th level spell. My example will be to have him use meteor swarm as his spell, which at base costs 19 spellpower. Then, add in a doubled spread(affecting 80 feet radius per meteor instead of 40) increases the cost to 21. As the spell is a standard action, and it can be targeted at a single enemy and it has infinite uses, it can actually be an excellent attack staple, which deals an average of 18 fire damage per meteor (totaling at 72 fire damage for a single opponent average and with an 80 foot radius it can hit massive numbers of foes)making for a truly fearsome attack. This is not even counting possible bludgeon damage. Its main weakness would be fire resistant foes or immune foes, but at 24th level he would be able to choose the energy type of the damage as well, making it possible for a smart player to choose the most effective effective energy to deal the most damage(fire to plants, lightning to water etc...) A wizard or sorcerer of equivalent level would only be able to cast meteor swarm 6 times at most, and although they can have useful feats to buff it up, lack the energy versatility of the superhero without multiclassing into archmage, and although they have a lot more casting options and overall can cast a large number of spells, being able to infinitely use meteor swarm holds massive options of damage potential.

I do have one question, however, can metamagic feats apply to a superpower, as the superpower is based off of a spell? If so, then we certainly have a true "superhero" going on here. =] --—Preceding unsigned comment added by Vestrione Seshione (talkcontribs)

You might wanna use spells that are actually good for your example :-P Something like Wail of the Banshee maybe? Or Maw of Chaos, I think is the spell. --Ghostwheel 23:06, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

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