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Leggo My Eg--err, Name Edit
- Ahh, I get it now. I'll put your old version back, then. Just give me a minute to figure out how to change this class... Surgo 16:08, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
- If you're wondering why I did it, it was because this class was made under this name months ago and I've been waiting for it to be finished (which it now is) to upload it here. The reason I moved the old name was, to be perfectly honest, because it was a very "generic"-feeling class and didn't seem to be tied to the soldier name in any way at all (I had no idea it was FF-based, which explains the name). So yeah. Sorry. I should have asked first. Surgo 16:14, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
Indomitable Nightmare: while the class having an actual class feature at 20 is good, I'm under the impression that you managed to make something too good for even that - a strike tends to be a pretty battle-changing move all by itself, 3 at once seems ... ridiculous. Since I highly suspect ripping the warblade off doesn't matter at all in Tome, dual-stancing might actually be worthwhile even at 20, and not too crazy. That, plus the reach increase, possibly.
- While many strikes are battle-changing, they're usually battle-changing... against one foe. Compare to a similar wizard-level class, the wizard, who can take out a half-dozen enemies with a single spell, or the soulborn who, once a minute, can wipe out all enemies within 100'. It's far more comparable to either of those than simply being able to be in two stances at the same time. --Ghostwheel 17:33, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
- While I never agreed with the old and IMO false point of the original Tome warriors being better than spellcasters, I do think the recent incarnum classes + soldier by Frank are, by virtue of being quite better than original Tome classes, actually better combatants than spellcasters (and perhaps those with UMD are their equals out of combat as well), which's too much, so I wouldn't consider the soulborn a good data point. As for wizard: in Tome games, it seems actually kinda hard to land all of those (multiple at a time - single ones should be easy enough) kills on enemies that do matter, between short ranges, higher saves in Tome and an expectation of death/mind-affecting/etc. immunity. Meanwhile, the proposed level 20 soldier can get pretty much anywhere relevant and attack (doom tunnel/harrying strike, depending on circustances), attack everyone in sight (world-slaying strike), then morph the most relevant target into a hamster almost without fail - and all 3 strikes may add, say, sleep with a duration of "you die", if needed. Also: if the class held its own up to level 17 (which Frank's original seems to imply), it basically holds its own through 20 as well, as the changes actually are ... minimal, especially with regards to a class that already had an at-will resource model (i.e. it doesn't even "need" more 9th-level spells/day as a wizard "might").
- Ummm... yeah, Foil Action is still better than anything this class or the soulborn has to bring to the table. It's actually better than spellcasters, since it doesn't even grant a save against its effects, doesn't suffer from SR, and enemies can't teleport away from you to break off (you'll just foil that as well). And I wasn't talking about just Save or Dies. I'm talking about Time Stop->Piranha Trap, dealing a good 100d6ish of damage to multiple enemies as a force effect with no save. Let's see most other characters top that. Even with all the things this gets, the Tome Fighter is still better. And capstones aren't there to "hold up". They're there because they're cool, and because it's something for a character to look forward to when they reach the pinnacle of their power, and a reason not to automatically multiclass into something else. --Ghostwheel 19:37, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
- I also think that the level 20 ability, while a good starting point, is probably too good. We need to break out of this cycle of wanting to top the last thing that was made. Surgo 22:09, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
- Foil: range limitations, doesn't affect actions started outside, doesn't break full attacks, and AFAIK nothing says it can't be broken by other immediate actions/contingencies. And there's piles of soldier stuff the fighter doesn't ever see (and does miss), not to mention it having a rogue minus UMD shoved in (skills, bugbear stance). Lastly, I should add: I am not and have not been actually trying to get anyone to nerf the soldier - I'm just arguing against a completely off-scale power boost to a class that at least doesn't need any (Level 20 class feature? Hell yes. Absurd vertical power boost? Hell no.). Piranha trap: yeah, I also didn't mention the incantatrix, because to top that you'd pretty much need a "normal" spellcaster/(any) Tome class and +200 to all abilities and wish at will (and it might not be enough, IIRC), and I intend to keep ignoring things that don't have a place in Tome. 20th level in general: a) if class features there don't need to "hold up", they need much less to be stupidly huge boosts; b) not multiclassing isn't "desirable" and doesn't need a "reward"; you do it if your concept is single-classed and don't if it isn't, period.
- Surgo: pretty much - need I say "Koumei", BTW?
- (Someone tell me if I'm being too long-winded for a wiki talk page, please.)
- This capstone: 20' reach limitation, only reliably attacks 3 enemies (and can still miss), has to move to get close enough, doesn't stop enemies from roflpwning on their turn, and a few others. I'm not seeing how this is offscale. And Tome was made to keep up with high-level wizards using their abilities to the max. This capstone is good for taking down a single enemy, or three enemies if they're clustered together and can't teleport out of your reach as an immediate action (which the fighter could foil), but still builds on their core abilities. And concepts have nothing to do with it--this is mechanics, not flavor, and there should be an incentive to continue taking levels in a class. When there isn't, that's when you get dead levels and classes that are only X levels long. The capstone may seem powerful, but A. It's supposed to be fairly powerful--this is level 20 we're talking about, and beyond that you're going into lala-epic land, and B. It's still not nearly as powerful as what many of the other wizard-level classes can pull off--without PrCs too. --Ghostwheel 08:10, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
- 19th-level soldier having 5' reach: ROFLMAO. "Close enough" can contain "line of sight" and "wherever some guy went". And Tome wasn't made to cope with shapechange, gate, miracle, incantatrixes (in order: already fixed, 2 scheduled for fixing back when the original authors worked on it, and simply ignored) and the like, if you think that. And the reason why you go to 20 in whatever class is because you get an ability that expresses your concept. Not "a better ability than everyone else gets", "an ability, period". Reality check: "Wizard 20: You can cast 3 spells at the time and slot costs of one." - and this is only a strawman at all if you believe soldiers are also underpowered at levels lower than 20, in which (absurd) case what it'd need would be an overall fix, not a ridiculous class feature that "fixes" all of 1 level out of however many are underpowered (definitionally at least 4, since basically every benchmark class got all of its things that matter by 17)
- Just saying that I've sort of stayed out of this discussion because I'm busy, but I'm thinking of a fix. Also, I don't really want to name names -- we're all guilty of it at some point or another. Some more than others. Surgo 16:59, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
- Side note: Gate is partially covered by the fixes to [Calling] spells in Tome of Fiends. And if/when the Tome of Virtue is done, or before, we already have a Miracle fix. So that's 2 covered and one pending, and one ignored. --Quantumboost 19:27, March 30, 2010 (UTC)
- Well-aware. That's why I'd refused to accept piranha trap as data - things that crappy (e.g. weird time stop uses) are things that need fixing. As already done for a number of them, and visibly scheduled for others.
Epic Race: Quarut Edit
Being able to act during other people's time stops is beyond even regular wizard-level powerful I think. If you have 3 spellcaster buddies, you get 3d4+3 rounds to beat the snot out of the enemies. I figure the design was intended to counter enemy time stops. Instead, it makes your own spellcasters' time stops ridiculously powerful (and is also a good counter). --Andrew Arnott (talk, email) 18:46, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
- Is this... in the right talk page? *headtilt* --Ghostwheel 18:52, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, didn't see that one *nod* That said, that's wizard-level shenanigans for you *shrug* --Ghostwheel 19:06, March 29, 2010 (UTC)
- Obv Time Stop doesn't actually freeze time, therefore you can't interact with anyone during the Time Stop except the one who cast the Time Stop. --TK-Squared 15:57, March 31, 2010 (UTC)