Balance Edit

Seems severely unbalanced to me. Let's take a sample character--a Crusader. They're in full plate, so their dex is around 12, and they add their charisma to Will so they have a low Wisdom modifier. First they take things that would hurt them: Magic Magnet, since their touch AC is virtually never going to be high enough to compete with touch attacks, Weak Mind since they don't use their Wisdom for Will saves anyway, and Slow Body since at most they're getting +1 to Reflex from dex anyway. That basically gives us 6 points without any real weaknesses that hurt us severely, for which we can get +6 to two ability scores for the case of this example. Alternatively, they could take Ageless (+3 to all mental stats) as well as +4 to one stat to get a total of +13 to stats, taking no real penalties for these bonuses. Just doesn't seem balanced at all. --Ghostwheel 05:54, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

This is being discussed in chat, I will reply once a conclusion is came to in there. → Rith (talk) 06:17, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
Another possibility might be to limit the "penalty" points to a max of 2, which would limit characters to less free stuff without it costing as far as xp and such goes.
Also, for ability points, I'd make it cost +1 the last cost, so 1 p for +2 in an ability, 3 p (1+2) for +4 in an ability, and 6 p (1+2+3) for +6 in an ability.
Finally, instead of losing experience (which can be broken, as per the Experience is a River thread on the wotc boards) or gold (makes it so CWBL might be broken-ish, doesn't matter at higher levels) I'd make it straight LA, which can be bought off in games where LA buyoff is used, and not where DMs prefer not to use it. --Ghostwheel 06:27, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
Dude, first off, you shouldn't be so blunt, it pisses people off. Secondly, I'll admit that this template may be slightly off, but I've already made a few edits to it, and more are coming. For future reference, I can be found in the chat if you would like to speak with me. → Rith (talk) 06:42, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for appearing blunt--it's hard for me to constructively criticise someone else's work without trying to explain my point of view. I'll try to be better about it in the future though. I also posted in here because I wanted to take a few minutes to organize my thoughts, something that can't really be done in the blow-by-blow in the chat. Though if you don't want criticism on your stuff, just lemme know and I'll not say another word about it. --Ghostwheel 06:56, September 10, 2009 (UTC)
No no, if it wasn't for critism, nothing would ever improve. It's just that you used very extreme words that made it seem as though you didn't beleive the template could be helped, and made me rather angry. Just, in the future, choose your words more carefully. → Rith (talk) 14:03, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

That Big List Edit

It is mostly as it was posted on the chat. Removed names and fixed a couple posting errors here and there. Anyways, here is that big list:

  • Inability to exist in daylight
  • Exposure to negative energy/positive energy [bad]
  • Always fail saves against poison/save penalties against poison or disease
  • Half AC
  • Half Natural Healing rate
  • Reroll successful saves [bad]
  • -2 on all saves: names... Hopeless, Error Prone... Unlucky
  • reroll all confirmed confirmation rolls on critical hits [bad]
  • Retinis Pigmentosa: Your eyesight is extremely narrowed. You can only perceive by means of sight in a line in front of you. Spot checks against creatures or objects outside of your line of vision automatically fail, etc. Pinhole Vision
  • Skills cost 2 points per rank
  • Bludgeoning damage doubled
  • Everything has DR5/- for you
  • Weapons count as a size smaller for damage
  • Charisma is halved for purpose of qualifying for spells
  • You get no bonus spells
  • Your AoE effects and spells have half that distance. In additin, you have no reach even with a reach weapon.
  • NPC's will regard you as indifferent at the best, unfriendly at start. Treat all NPC interactions as one lowerthan they are.
  • Anything with an Int of 2 or less flees from you, unless attacked.
  • Store owners don't like you and charge you double cost for items...
  • Unloved: Members of the opposite sex will treat you as unfriendly at best.
  • Ill-fated: -1 to ALL rolls you make.
  • Muzzle: You lose all natural attacks, including bite, tail, claw, and wing attacks.
  • Permanent Negative Level (Note, cannot be removed. ECL 1 characters don't die from it. Doesn't actually result in level lose.) well, its like, a permanent unremovable curse or something, and I forget all the effects of negative levels.
  • Split Personality: Pick two types of personality, one taking a minus to charisma and the other to Wisdom. Roll a d100 at the beginning of each day to see what type you are.
  • Don't allow Slow Footed, Slow Body, or Weak Mind to be taken if you have negative ability score modifiers. as written, you can take them with negative ability score modifiers and not actually lose anything or — ability modifiers.

Hope you find some use out of any of that.--Ganteka Future 20:56, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I've got a few idea's now. I've narrowed down the list and changed a few things so that all of them detriment all characters (to the best of my knowledge):
  • Cannot exist within in direct light, or you die (mechanical workings to be detailed). cost:−4p
  • Cannot exist outside some form of light, or you die (mechanical workings to be detailed). cost:−4p
  • Any and all hit points recovered (whether from a negative energy effect, a positive energy effect, or rest) is split in half (rounded down). cost:−3p
How would this work with Lesser Vigor? --Ghostwheel 05:45, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
Good point, I have a Fast Healing ability with this template. Add a minimum of 1 point recovered. → Rith (talk) 20:52, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
  • Take a penalty on all saves equal to (1 + ¼ HD). cost:−3p
  • Any and all damage you deal, to anyone, from any source, be it a spell or a melee attack, is reduced by an ammount equal to your HD. cost:−2p
How about spellcasters who don't deal damage? (God wizards and such) --Ghostwheel 05:45, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
That's one out the window. → Rith (talk) 20:52, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
  • All damage dealt to you is doubled. cost:−5p
I like this one ^_^ --Ghostwheel 05:45, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
Why thank you, I try. → Rith (talk) 20:52, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
  • Take a penalty to all rolls you make equal to (1 + ⅛ HD). cost:−5p
Same as the spellcaster one, those who don't roll too many rolls --Ghostwheel 05:45, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
Everyone makes rolls. For the guy in question, he'd be making concentration checks, saves, and CL checks at a penalty he would prolly rather not have. → Rith (talk) 20:52, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
  • At the beginning of each day, roll 1d2. On a roll of 1, you gain no benefits from this template for the day, still taking penalties however. At the beginning of the next day, you roll again. cost:−3p
Nice! --Ghostwheel 05:45, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, I thought this was a good one too. → Rith (talk) 20:52, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
Now then, do these penalties seem appropriate for the the p value given at the end of each one? (Also, I'd perfer that all numeric penalties scale, given that the numeric benifits of this template scale as well.) → Rith (talk) 05:37, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
For the most part, yes, though the exist within/without light feels slightly off, since either there's never going to be a problem with it (everburning torch or w/e) or they'll automatically die the first time it occurs--unless perhaps there's a save every round with scaling DCs according to character level? --Ghostwheel 05:45, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
Well, for the light/no light ones, yes, it would be tricky. I'd would have a save DC each round to survive, of course, and would prolly include ways to avoid the fact, such as converring every inch of your skin with black shawls, or enchanting a pebble with the 'light' spell, and wrapping it up in a bandage that presses it against your skin. Of course, I would also include autofailures, such as darkness spells of a level X always dealing Xd6 damage to you if you are caught within the range of them, or something. Then there would also be the issue of shadowy illumination (was thinking of fatigue while you are in it for both). Opinions/comments/ways to make these ideas better? → Rith (talk) 20:52, September 11, 2009 (UTC)
Need to cast permanancy on the 'light' spell. Other than that, I think there you have a good addition. Ben Overon 23:27, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

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