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Talk:Ninja (3.5e Class)

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@ Edit

What's with the @ at the end of some abilities? Surgo 18:15, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

Koumei defined it as "requires unarmored and light load" at the beginning of the class abilities section. Should be edited into the abilities instead of shorthanded though. - TarkisFlux 18:24, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
It will be. I'm basically slapping the classes up straight from the threads, and THEN I expand the shorthand and such Koumei uses and correct any issues people (read: Surgo) bring up. --Genowhirl 03:22, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

IncompleteEdit

Ghostwheel, what the hell, man? Are you trying to become this wiki's Seagull who can't accept something not fitting into his nice little system? --Genowhirl 07:45, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

No, actually, Surgo said a while back that anything that's got any <Text needs to go here> sections should be marked as incomplete. You can check with him if you like. That said, if the sections are removed wholesale, the incomplete tag can be removed too. I just mark em as incomplete as I see em. --Ghostwheel 07:47, March 30, 2010 (UTC)


OP Edit

So at lvl 3 you can run up to someone invisible attack them with your (str or Dex with feat) + int + BAB to hit and +(str and int) on damage so on average + 9 to hit (this is with str 16 and int 16 low pretty low) (were a war is + 7 at 18 str) you automatically crit lets go 2 battle axes not to be too cheap just say lets throw a power attack there so you do -3 to attack which gives you +7 to hit which is pretty good and you hit for a average of 80 dmg at lvl 3 then you can go back invisible so you cant even be touched or if they can somehow see you (%50 misss chance)..... need i say anymore for the rest of this class...... --Kojopo 03:11, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Wizard-level classes are wizard-level. --Ghostwheel 04:02, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
First of all, having both a strength of 16 and an intelligence of 16, combined with 16 dexterity from two-weapon fighting is not "pretty low", that's really good. On the other hand, being a 1d6 HD meleer, you're going to have shit for con and be killed by a light breeze. Not to mention your math is flat-out wrong. If you're using two-weapon fighting with battle axes and power-attacking for -3, even if you had a 16 in strength and int, your attacks would be made at (+3 BAB +3 str +3 int -2 TWF -2 medium weapons -3 PA), or +2. That's very, very different than +7. Maybe try again, with a complaint that actually uses readable grammar, optimizes the class as best you can (give it a x4 crit weapon!), and doesn't get the math off by +5! Karrius 06:15, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
fine ok my math was a bit off soz i fogot about needing dex for two wep fighting too lol ill redo my speech ok so we will go 18 dex 18 int this time and 14 str so good rolls. with a pick heavy and light pick with Weapon Finesse, power attack, abitextious and two wep fighting feats making so a two weps a 0/0 so you get (+3 BAB and +4 Dex +4 Int) and ill still do -3 power attack with this time you get +7 to hit with both attacks and a damage of (1d6 +6(str + int) +3(power attack)X4 so 48 damage (average) and (1d4 +6(str + int) +3(power attack)X4 so 44 damage (average) so a total of 92 damage (average) and you are inivs so who care about your con they have to see you and hit you and then you get a %50 miss chance too.
so 92 damage (avarage) when if you are a rouge and get sneak attack you get about 24 damage (avarage) so 4 times the damage. even for a wizard class OP. --Kojopo 03:22, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
Two 18s, and a 14, with none of those in con for a melee character with 1d6 HP is either absolutely HUGE stats, or leaving you with basically no HP. Ambidextrous is also no longer a feat. So you've got Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Finesse at level 3. Ok. You'll have to be a human, but ok. You have (+3 BAB +4 int +2 str -2 twf -3 pa) on the main hand, for +4. On the offhand weapon finesse kicks in, for +6. So AGAIN you're getting the math wrong as it is certainly not "8 hit with both attacks". That's not terribly good, but presumably you're making crits all the time. And you're only invisible half the time - you have to take a standard action to renew it each turn. So first round you either move into position for a full attack, OR attack a guy once. You end up gibbing 1-2 guys (assuming you hit) and then.... die horribly. Suggest a realistic stat array from 32 point buy, AND get your math right if you want people to take you seriously. Karrius 03:40, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
English, motherfucker, do you speak it!? You've got one fucking punctuation mark in there. So quick review: English, math, common sense. Come back with all of them, please, or spare us the waste of time. Protip: a realistic 32 point buy might look like 08/18/14/16/08/08. -- Jota 03:59, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
So they asked me to look at it, my oh my.
Lesse, on the class itself, time to give it a look over. Right off, I see I want to format it. A few grammatical goofs, and general sparseness makes me frown. Hmm, mention of Armored in Life, combined with Wizard level, and I'll presume this is a Tome class and rate accordingly. Surprise is too much... as noted on the class itself for some reason, auto-crits at level one is too good, and he seems self-aware of the scythe issue. Too Fast is nice, though I worry about frontloading the class... Wall Jump is cool, Monk feature done right. Ninja'd is strong but can work just fine, again worried about putting all this good stuff on the front. I would imagine discouraging dipping via encouraging going through the class is a positive... you want them to take Ninja 20.
Invisible at will, blah. For at will powers I'd take a nod from Warlock and delay them a bit, but since this is Tome that's forgivable, and you still have to burn actions on it, so we'll go with this. Speed of Thought, ok. We're now sufficently into the class where it's less dippable now. Cowabunga is totally cool. Dark Stalker is cool. Seductive Gaze.... really? Besides a questionable flavor, a gaze attack is strong for an effective save or die. The only saving grace is the presumably low DC. Still, that's just random. Master of Disguise is fine and frankly could stand to be lower. Summon Mist, cool, and this should really come before you give invisibility at will. No need for mist when you can just not be visible, not to mention it's a lower spell level. Kidney Punch, I'd like to do a Stunning Fist thing here and limited it, but we'll give it a waive due to Tome and relatively low saving throw.
Double Jump, cool, flying and level appropriate IMO. Join the Clan is odd, but yeah it'll work. Scurry is fine. Anti-Noise is fine. Sexy No Jitsu (groan). Less, it's not bad actually, in spite of being silly Naruto nonsense this works. Log Trick, you want to say a (Minor? Major) image, not a MIRROR image. Now, the problem being is that this is apparently at will, and so it's abrupt jaunt caster cheese at it's finest, now without limit. One attack a round, be it spell, attack, or anything, never hits ever. I'm not sure even Tome can hold that much. Go Ninja Go, what is a "partial" action? Anyway, combined with an earlier ability this is "get a round free at the start of every combat" which at 8th level for Tome I geuss works, if not being strong. It lowers the need for a decent intiative, due to being able to play rocket tag before the highest init roll generally.
Master of Escape has a typo mentioning swashbucklers. Otherwise ok. Ninjas Fly, ok. Flying Kick, ok but with a Dex based save it's more likely going to be a high save DC than low, and very few things resist dazing. I'd recommend stunning myself, or nausea if you can fit the flavor. Otherwise fine. Not Visible, interesting, auto-hide in plain sight basically. Close Combat, alright. Seems mean to grapplers, but can work. Shadow Lands, ok. Shadow Clone, ok, but extra damage per copy? You can get a LOT of copies. However, it's straight damage in Tome, so while I think it's "too much" I'll let it pass on that. Too Fast, ok. There's a typo on the last sentence. Secret... Bedroom... WTF. Well, tastefulness aside, what's the duration? If it has no duration, Save vs Thrall For Life is some seriously nasty stuff, and since it's not mind effecting apparently, this puts it better than some 9th level spells at 12th level, home of 6th level spells. This one needs work.
Get Over Here, fine, noted not specifying mind effecting, and while the flavor suggests it, isn't specified as language dependant technically. You should put that in there so there's no RAW questions. Otherwise ok. Trap Setter, ok. Spirit Blade, the ghost killing is ok, the ignore even impassable DR and make brillent energy attacks is pretty cheesy. At least it's at 13th, and since it's like brillent energy and not wraithstrike, a real touch attack, this will work. Time to Death, ok, it's an improvement to whats already there. Perfect Disguise, a bit weird but works. Pirate Killer, weird but works. The yar thing is hard to put into solid mechanics IMO.
Spell Stowaway, well ok, but what ninja fluff is this? Never heard of things like that. Secret Scrolls, meh, more ninja powers that don't seem ninja.... what is Utterdark anyway? The only spell I know of that name is 9th level and it's not Core so you should specify where it comes from... Perpetual Distraction, fine at this level. Honestly should be mind-affecting. Honor is Babies, worrisome but fine. We're high level now, we can get a bit more loose. Disregard Me, fine. Murder Punch, fine though how does this work vs the Tarrasque? A better wording is her attacks count as bypassing regen, or use vile damage. Harem No Jutsu (sigh) Oh Naruto, how your fluff foils me. Same as Sexy No Jitsu but more. Finish Him, fine at level 17th. Me First, again with the questionable fluff. Excusable at this level. You Can't See Me, apparently at will, and the opponent gets no say in the matter. Yes, it's high level and tome, but even then this is pretty overpowered. You're already to instantly move out of harms way, slay casters as good as any dedicated caster build, and other things.
Clan Master, blah, become immune to Conjuration and become immune to the world. Interesting if you can't shut it off though, some good effects vanish too. The Mental bonii is unnessicary. Forbidden Tech, a high level save or die, excusable. Nightmare Realm, more SLAs for the not-actually a caster. Not bad inherently, but this is getting silly with how much stuff it gets overall. Fully Too Fast, fine. Again with the dazing with a high DC, Int would do fine. Back in Black, well, it's 20th level so I don't care. Again, fluff, what's the justification?
Frankly, this is a bad class, but not for the reasons Kojopo is worried about. Besides having several overpowered things even for Tome, the biggest problem is focus. I am imagining the creator took every vaguely ninja related thing from every source (even sources which really are only ninjas in name), put them in a blender, and randomly scattered the powers across the board without worry that they made sense together or if they were level appropriate at the time. We have a spellcasting master of mystic arts ninja, a DBZ Flash Step ninja, a assassination ninja, a super spy master of disguises ninja, a master of attacks full BAB ninja, a skillmonkey ninja.... hell, everything. Please, pick one. You can make a powerful class just fine out of one of these things, but half of these I can't justify the flavor for them. It's less of the feel of playing a ninja and more feeling like "what cool random power do I have now".
On that note, I have horror vaccui too, I dislike dead levels, so filling all the spaces is good. That said, you overstuffed them, not simply with many powers per level but also powers in general. You can relax a bit adding new powers if you have a single power you continue to upgrade over time, be it times per day, strength of the power, or additions to it's scope. Besides filling in spaces, it also gives the class a coherent theme. The Barbarian... his thing is rage. The paladin? Smiting! The rogue is Sneak Attack. The Bard has bardsong! These iconic powers grow with the class, they are the meat of the class. This has no meat, just a series of bits.
I want to take an axe to this class and help, but honestly my help will distort this class quite a bit, so I leave it up to you Genowhirl to decide what you see best. See if you can shorten the list of powers at least, look how long my review as without spaces and just short blurbs on each power. This class would take up a small chapter with it's level benefits list. Well I hope my advice helps.
PS- Kojopo, having two 18s is pretty good. IMO, if you want to run an example, use point buy 32, which I understand is "average/high", so it's not so random and you can make an easier to swallow judgement. Also your math appears to be off again, but that's for another story. -- Eiji Hyrule 04:35, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
wow thats a long review thats all i am going to say anymore. --Kojopo 06:24, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
Heh. You'd have to see the author of this is action. I just put it up. There's a lot of weird jokes and references in there. All Ninjas Fly, f'rinstance, is apparently a joke from Ask A Ninja. I'll drop a line on the Den and let her know to come take a look and give her own view. --74.182.83.96 16:13, August 11, 2010 (UTC)

(reverting indent)

Passed this along to the class author. you can see her response here: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50367 Bottom post. Name of Koumei. --Genowhirl 07:26, August 12, 2010 (UTC)
Eiji, you've inspired something that will be either horrifying or brilliant. Possibly both.
In other news, bypassing DR/- isn't as big a deal as you seem to think, since a one-level dip in Dungeo. Monk gets you that. --Quantumboost 17:02, August 12, 2010 (UTC)
Planning to edit those in Genowhirl? - TarkisFlux 18:53, August 12, 2010 (UTC)
I was rushed this morning and didn't get a chance. Too tired tonight to be able to pick over wiki text. I'll get on it tomorrow morning, unless someone's jonesing for it to be done tonight, in which case they can have at it. --Genowhirl 04:30, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
THIS IS YOUR FAULT, EIJI. http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51482 . See what Koumei's doing now? --Genowhirl 17:08, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
What have I done?
On other news, anyone mind if I put the April Fools tag on it, given its unseriousness? -- Eiji Hyrule 22:29, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
As long as it still shows up among the normal classes. It actually works quite well in a straight game. People just accepted the ninja could run on water as long as he kept moving, and the Invisibility got used to lead off a fight or sneak. Once that first round was over, the Ninja was too busy contributing to the fight to bother to become invisible in the middle of it. --Genowhirl 01:04, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
Oh certainly. I have several April Fools classes after all, like that Chuck Norris Way of the Walker one. -- Eiji Hyrule 01:20, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
Does that mean that we're putting April Fool's tags on any article that's done in a not-completely-serious manner? Because I'm going to have to mark a lot of TGD-originating stuff if that's the case. :\ --Quantumboost 09:33, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

 ? Edit

I'm going out on a limb and guess you're trying to make a "ninja" that drew from every pop-culture myth that involved anything that called itself a "ninja". If so, then I suppose it's no big, but if your trying to go for a true ninja (i.e. professional warriors who practiced concealment and worked as spies, scouts, and on and on), then this class is bunk. You've got power up the wazoo, and they're all disjointed and out of place.

In retrospect, I don't see much in the way of an actual ninja. Looks to me like you just made a wizard with a couple features, then slapped on a "ninja" stamp, and called it as such. I guess what need to be said is that your class is overpowered to infinity and, given that it draws on ninja in pop-culture (which is bothersome to one who likes the ninja as a covert warrior, skilled in deception, stealth, and trickery, but does it with a minimum of mysticism), it's not original. That's just my two cents. Hanzo187 17:47, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Well, this is a Tome class, which means that its going to be of Wizard balance (and thus OP to some), and while I think that this one is a little too much, your definition doesn't help make a class. A professional warrior who practices concealment and works as a spy and scout is a rogue. Your second definition: covert warrior, skilled in deception, stealth, and trickery, but does it with minimum of mysticism, is still a rogue. That's why all ninja base classes will fail on some level or another, because when you get down to it, the rogue does their historical job better than all of them.
Do the research! --TK 20:27, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
Shockingly, Hanzo, people want a base class for everything. I can understand why. It stinks having to fight the mechanics to fulfill your character concept. And if your character concept isn't historically accurate, the game should not suffer for it. Sure, historically, the ninjas were ballsy peasants who would stab the local lord after serving his tea. Sure, the Rogue can fulfill those tasks. And, sure, historically, the Samurai uses bows and spears a -lot- more than they did katanas. But, fact is, people who want to play a Samurai likely want him to be good in melee. People who play a ninja, by now, expect a lot of crazy talents and super-stealth. And and a base class with crazy class abilities to help with that end aren't a bad thing. And more interesting than "You get +1 to Reflex in highly specific circumstances" or "A number went up. Yay." every other level. --Genowhirl 21:36, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
If that's how people see it, that's no problem by me. I've made a few 3.5 ninja and samurai builds myself, but I set them up to make sure they were balanced and unique in their own way. The best build for both involved making them martial adepts (from the ToB) and, truth to tell, they came out well. The themes fit well and they could hold their own. I even made a 4e ninja, but in the end, I find myself drawn back to the rogue in both cases because I think a class who relies purely on skill to win is more impressive than a character who has to rely on a bunch of spells and/or supernatural abilities to achieve that end. Wizards hold zero appeal to me in 3.5 because they are the epitome of overpowered.
That being said, there is such a thing as an oversaturation of features. Typical 3.5 non-spellcasting classes that have a feature at every level have one feature at 13 of those levels, and two, MAYBE three in the rest.
I also couldn't agree more with you, Genowhirl. Flavor and mechanics have to be seperated because when flavor comes to the fore, everyone has their own interpretation of it. Alignment debate, much? --Hanzo187 Hanzo187 23:12, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

Variant? Edit

Shouldn’t this be labeled as Ninja (Variant)? I'll admit that I didn't really look at the class, but the standard 3.5e ninja class appears in Complete Adventurer and starts on page 3, 4, or 5 ( can't remember what one though). Just ponting that fact out.

"The difference between bravery and stupidity is if the plan works" - Newrok Shadowblade, Saint of Creation in Shadowgate 12:45, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Not really, seeing as how it's in the Homebrew section to begin with. --Genowhirl 15:27, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, we don't need the variant tag but we do have disambig statements on all of the other tome pages with the same name as other WotC material. So one has been added here. - TarkisFlux 16:33, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Am I the only one here who realizes... Edit

That this class contains a lot of spelling errors, but ones that are only obscure to those without a bit of knowledge of actual linguistics? As a minor note from someone who finds this class interesting, but won't play it, the plural of Ninja... Is Ninja. IE no s at the end,you silly people. --YX33A 16:54, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

Not strictly true. If the word was said in Japanese, that would be correct. But when spoken in English, both with and without the s are correct, just as "mispelled" and "misspelled" are both correct spellings. In addition, the Ninjas were a private army in the Republic of Congo in the 1990s and very much had an "s" on the end. Surgo 01:08, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
1990s, Congo, private army, Ninjas... that sounds like a setup to the best videogame ever! --Ganteka Future 01:35, August 17, 2010 (UTC)

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