Talk: Imago Quori (3.5e Prestige Class)

Apotheosis

These abilities seem somewhat confused. The latter one should probably be renamed Quori Apotheosis as in the list: you currently have two Demi-Quori Apotheosis abilities.

For the one which I presume is supposed to be Demi-Quori: There isn't actually a Planetouched subtype preexisting - Aasimar and Tieflings are Outsider (Native). You could still give them that subtype, it just wouldn't do anything. Banishment doesn't affect "Outsiders", it affects creatures with the Extraplanar subtype - meaning that it would affect a Pit Fiend native to Baator who was on the Prime Material, and it would also affect a Prime-native Human who was on Mechanus. You could instead say "The Imago is now native to the Plane of Dreams, and is treated as an Outsider by spells and effects that depend on creature type." If you want to instead have them native to wherever they were native before, you could just leave that part out. This makes them immune to charm person, and make them susceptible to "transform all Outsiders within 100 yards into fancy hats".

Do you actually intend for a 10th-level Imago to lose the benefits of, say, the Greater Teleport feat when they get the at-will greater teleport from apotheosis? As written, that's what happens. --Quantumboost 06:34, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Fixin' the first. And there is a planetouched, it's a property of all those "lesser" races like lesser tiefling. Check the back of your Players guide to Faerun. Noted on the Outsider vs Extraplanar thing, most outsiders are inherently extraplanar with the rare exception of native outsiders (and the game assumes we're playing on the material). Still, I'll clarify. Also, I like hats.

What is the Greater Teleport feat? -- Eiji Hyrule 14:29, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Eww, Player's Guide to Faerun... but okay, my bad on that one. :)

Most Outsiders are Extraplanar, but several aren't - I expect a lot of people get confused by that. An Aasimar born on the Prime is not Extraplanar there, nor is a Couatl. A Human born on Mechanus is. And when a Prime Aasimar, or even a Prime Human goes to Mechanus, he *gains* the Extraplanar subtype, and the Human from Mechanus loses it. Extraplanar is a matter of where you are rather than what you are.

Here's the feat. It gives you greater teleport at will as a spell-like ability. As written, Quori Apotheosis makes you able to use greater teleport at will as an SLA on the Plane of Dreams - and you're no longer able to use greater teleport at will as an SLA on other planes. If you have that ability already, it reads as though you lose the ability on other planes. --Quantumboost 16:30, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I believe the wording on extraplanaristy has been clarified now, alert me if I missed anything. As for the feat, ah, tome, no wonder. Well, I can't really account for other homebrew, only WotC, but the intent is of course that you can teleport only on the plane of dreams, by being a class feature, not that you'd lose teleportation from other non-class sources. I'll see how I can reword it. -- Eiji Hyrule 21:48, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Quori Weapons

Is the ability usable that many rounds per day? week? lifetime? Once the weapons are "permanent", can they still be manifested and dismissed, or is your limb always a thing of madness? How does this affect your ability to use weapons, shields, objects? -- Techpriest88 19:09, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say it was 1 round/day per class level, I thought I did, I'll check. When permenant, it just becomes "at will". I'll clarify that too. Eh heh, I'd complain, but this is actually a good thing, I want it to be error free. Thanks. -- Eiji Hyrule 21:48, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Haha, I know I know... minor nitpicking. But I like to have things spelled out in detail and from the sound of it, you do too. ^.^ Honestly, it seemed like even official 3-3.5e books left out crucial details... left me practically screaming in frustration at times. -- Techpriest88 01:57, April 25, 2010 (UTC)

Bit of a odd question, but how many Quori weapons can a player manifest at once? I'd guess one, but at level 10, I'm not sure.

Balance

Obvious wizard-level is obviously obvious. --Ghostwheel 20:28, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Unsupported arguement is unsupported. :P -- Eiji Hyrule 21:48, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Psion is a wizard-level classs. This class on top of a psion is stronger than a straight psion. Therefore it's wizard-level. I figured it was easy enough to understand that I didn't have to spell it out. --Ghostwheel 21:53, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

I have been told often that psionics, and ergo psions, are rogue due to powers being more limited than their arcane brothers. -- Eiji Hyrule 21:57, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

It's true that they're not as strong--but they're still wizard-level. Ask Surgo if you must. --Ghostwheel 21:59, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Do you plan on changing this? --Ghostwheel 07:03, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Still trolling for opinions, so far I only have three, one wizard, one rogue, one "not sure". Bah, well, time to keep trollin' trollin' trollin' trollin'... -- Eiji Hyrule 16:57, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

This part isn't an opinion though. Balance ratings aren't a matter of opinions ("I think monks are the strongest class in the game because they're fast and no one can hit them and they can hit hardest with their high unarmed damage..."), and in this case you're adding more options and abilities to a class that's already wizard-level (the psion) with very few drawbacks (lose a feat, lose a single level of ML--the second won't affect the SGT IMO). Thus, it's obvious that this is wizard-level, and opinion doesn't come into it at all. --Ghostwheel 19:12, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Ghost, what you probably mean to say is that it's objective, not that it's not "an opinion". Going down the "opinion/not opinion" route means that you're making a semantic argument, and that means that people can effectively argue against you on a semantic level. Also, you're claiming that it's obvious, when that isn't true; it isn't obvious to Eiji, since he is still undecided on the matter. It's only accurate to say that it's "obvious" to you.

Your support for the Psion being wizard-level is currently an appeal to authority (with you as the authority). You'd get more support for the assertion if you made an argument that supported that more strongly, or were able to point to a previous argument that did that. Also, you say that something "won't affect the SGT IMO" and then go on to say that "opinion doesn't come into it at all" - which is odd when you bring up your opinion. --Quantumboost 19:48, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the authority I'm appealing to is Surgo (who I think qualifies as a proper and legitimate authority on the subject who is correct in this case, making the argument not be a logical fallacy), who pointed out a number of wizard-level powers available to the psion (Mind Blast, Metamorphosis, and a few others, they currently slip my mind) to establish that psions are wizard-level, and I agreed with him after he pointed them out. That said, the reason that I don't think that losing a single ML is going to have much of an effect on the SGT is because you're still able to manifest level 5 powers at level 10, and you can always top off your ML for augmentation purposes with Practiced Manifester or Overchannel. So in this case, I don't know if it even qualifies as an opinion, and might be more of a fact--since you don't lose your highest-level powers in the level 10 SGT, and by level 20 you still have 9th-level powers. The fact that you don't lose highest-level powers for the level 10 SGT isn't opinion--it's a demonstratable fact.

Furthermore, we'd already established quite a while ago that any class that boosted a wizard-level class counts as wizard-level. There have been a number of Prestige Classes when I was doing mass balance rating assignments that I brought to Surgo's attention. Even if they did incredibly little, as long as a wizard could take it and not lose too much, I was told to mark them as wizard-level. --Ghostwheel 19:57, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

That isn't how logical fallacies work. Appeal to Authority is always a logical fallacy unless something is a determining authority (i.e., their say-so is what makes something true or not - Surgo doesn't determine whether something specific is Wizard-level, the SGT does). Not being a logical fallacy requires you to always, for every single possible set of premises and conclusion that fits the pattern, produce a true conclusion when you have true premises. That said...

See, you made a supporting argument right there! That wasn't so hard. And if something is a demonstrable fact, then you go a long way toward convincing your audience if you then proceed to demonstrate that fact.

Also, nobody does or should care what you have at level 20. Level 20 isn't just in crazytown, it's batshit insane. --Quantumboost 20:07, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Eh, depends at what level of balance you're playing at. As long as you up the AC and health enough, rogue-level (and lower) characters play much the same at level 20 as they did at level 10 for the most part. The only ones who really paint crazytown red are wizard-level combatants--but they're doing so far before level 20. --Ghostwheel 20:16, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Sure, if you're playing with all-humanoid enemies. But if you have them face a Balor, things are, in fact, batshit insane. It's not just the capabilities of the player characters. --Quantumboost 23:21, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Eh, if you're going to use the CR system you don't need to go that high to show how FUBAR'd the abilities of monsters are. (See: That Damned Crab and the allip for examples) --Ghostwheel 23:58, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the Balor is in any way remarkable in that way, as the Giant Crab and Allip are. No. The Balor is business as usual when you get to that point. It was there not because it's exemplary, but because that was the first thing I thought up. The PCs at level 20 are playing a game of logistics, not a game of fighting. Or else they lose.

Level 20 doesn't matter. Things are insane, and you'll only be doing things for a few more encounters before you either retire your characters or start using the atrocity that is the Epic Level rules. It almost doesn't matter what you can do at level 20 as long as you don't invalidate the world itself (or invalidate only a miniscule fragment). --Quantumboost 00:03, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Wow, this really exploded while not in my presence. While I am still in debate, I just thought to update that I am getting more views on the matter, and it is very nearly dead even (wizard, rogue, not sure, wizard, rogue, not sure again.... ) I'm starting to think psions may be one of those fence straddling classes like the warlock. In which case, if that is true, the choice would have to come down to if ML loss balances out the bonuses gained (keeping in mind that you should be getting new toys as you level). ML loss hurts a bit more can CL loss, which I already consider to be fairly important. Anyway, we'll see how this goes, the hunt continues. -- Eiji Hyrule 02:01, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Enough data has been collected, I place them as "low wizard" level ala sorcerers and their ilk. -- Eiji Hyrule 02:20, April 27, 2010 (UTC)