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Talk:Freeze Frame (3.5e Feat)

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Balance Level Edit

I think this feat as-is might warrant the Wizard level of power; basically, as long as you can get an AoO, you allow almost anything level-equivalent to be killed by a Save or Die.

Let me explain what I mean through example. We have two level nine characters, a Fighter, and a Wizard. The Wizard picked up Flesh to Ice.

Fighter stats:
Fighter's Strength: 16 (Base) + 2 (Level) + 4 (Item) = 24 (+7)
Fighter's feats: Martial Study (Crusader's Strike), Martial Stance (Martial Spirit), Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Deft Opportunist, Freeze Frame, Melee Weapon Mastery, Greater Weapon Focus
Fighter's Equipment: +1 Devoted Spirit Longsword, +4 Belt of Strength, Bracers of Opportunity
Total attack bonus on an AoO: 7 (Str) + 9 (BAB) + 4 (Weapon) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 1 (Greater Weapon Focus) + 2 (Melee Weapon Mastery) + 4 (Deft Opportunist) + 2 (Bracers of Opportunity) = +30

As you can see, nothing listed there is overly powerful, and the fighter still has a few extra feats left over, especially if they're Human.

Wizard stats:
Wizard's Intelligence: 18 (Base) + 2 (Level) + 4 (Item) = 26 (+8)
Wizard's Feats: Spell Focus (Transmutation), Greater Spell Focus (Transmutation)
DC of Flesh to Ice: 10 (Base) + 8 (Intelligence) + 1 (Spell Focus) + 1 (Greater Spell Focus) + 5 (Spell Level) = 26

Now, just for the sake of this example, let's have them fight a Formian Queen--a CR 17 creature that neither should be able to defeat, even together. Furthermore, let's assume the fighter does his job and gets adjacent to the queen somehow. The wizard unleashes Flesh to Ice.

Where the queen would normally shrug off the attack with ease (+19 Fort save), she's now forced to make another save. Due to his high attack bonus (+21), he chooses to subtract his whole BAB (+9) from the attack, still giving him an excellent attack (+21) which only misses the queen's AC (23) on a one or a two. Suddenly, she needs to make another save (at +10). Her chances of throwing off the spell drop from almost guaranteed to under a 50% chance of missing against the spell's DC (26).
Furthermore, this only gets worse as the fighter gains more levels, allowing him to get an opponent's save completely off the RNG.

With all this said and done, I believe a "fix" for this problem would be forcing another save at a -2 penalty--even this on its own drops the queen's chance of failing the save from a 70% chance of success to a 42% chance of success (adding both the penalty as well as the need to roll a second time).

Even at a -2 penalty and forcing a reroll, this feat would still be very worthwhile to take. --Ghostwheel 09:45, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Wow, I never actually thought about it that way before. I guess I can make a small edit to say 'maximum penalty of -2' or something. Thanks.
Glad I was able to give a new perspective :-) --Ghostwheel 14:45, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

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