Tide of Time Edit

This ability is deeply problematic. Both of its powers are too good at any level, let alone level 3. For the first, it is causing someone to lose their entire turn without a save -- compare to dazing someone with no save, would you ever allow that? The second power is to give a teammate an entire extra turn of actions -- again, uh, wow. The only thing limiting people in D&D is how many actions they get and...yeah. I don't think that ability can be salvaged whatsoever, and the class is very, very problematic as long as it has said ability. Surgo 19:40, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Well, the idea was, that, in effect, each use, in regards to creature X, can only be used once a day, as, once it's used, you can't skip that creature again, or grant them an extra round, unless you do the exact opposite to them, thereby balancing them out, not to mention that it uses up something that, at that level, you only get three daily uses of, each day. Of course, taking that into account, I was really a bit iffy on that ability anyways, as it is quite strong, but, the other version for it (just changing your initiative count in subsequint rounds), was deemed far too weak for the requirements of using it. Though, if the preservation of the action economy is that vital, perhaps upping the action required to make it a full-round action, and making it purely mental, would be the way to go? In effect, it would let you sacrifice your round in order to take out theirs, on give your round for an ally to use. → Rith (talk) 20:14, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
Well, the idea was, that, in effect, each use, in regards to creature X, can only be used once a day, as, once it's used, you can't skip that creature again, or grant them an extra round, unless you do the exact opposite to them, thereby balancing them out...
Someone seems to be forgetting the ability to delay and ready actions... And it gets even worse later on when you can sack more uses through Repose of Time to ready multiple actions or gain multiple swift action in order to use it time and again. Nova-tastic? Yes. Overpowered for the rogue level, and probably for the wizard-level too? (See how strong Foil Action is considered to be for the Tome Fighter.) Absolutely. --Ghostwheel 20:27, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
And what about the suggestion of making it a full-round action? Thereby perserving the action economy. (Also, the one that can give you extra actions, is Knot of Time, and it rigorously adheres to the action economy, as, for each action you gain, you lose an extra action somewhere else). → Rith (talk) 21:34, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
Celerity, in all forms, is bad. Borrowing an action from the future is bad, regardless of cost, because if you do it right you never have to pay that cost. Snake's Swiftness is basically fine. Spending an action of your own to give others an action at the exact moment you're giving yours up is fine, because that cost can't be avoided, even if it does multiply your actions or effectiveness (like casting a spell or using a power normally does). I totally wouldn't care if he gave up his whole turn to give another ally his action on that turn (to be used immediately), and it might even work if he was stealing an opponent's action (steal a full round, get a move or whatever, save to avoid), but borrowing from the future is bad bad bad.
The initiative thing is weird, in that you either get an extra turn to murder a guy or make him lose his turn... and get murdered by someone else. It could just be turned into an immediate action avoidance thing. You spend an immediate action, move your initiative up to before the guy who you just interrupted (whether that is before or after your current doesn't even matter), and then get to take any actions you have not taken yet this round immediately. So if he had gone before you and tagged you with a power, you can use this to walk up and hit him upside the head while he aims at the spot you were just standing in. Or if you had used your actions already and he went after you, you could just drop your init to right before he went and not get anything else (which isn't awesome, but potentially required to set you up for an interrupt action again).
There are some other things in here that I need to think about as well. The infinite duration Time Stop in particular needs more thought. - TarkisFlux 22:18, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
Crafting heaven? Or time to research weird spells, or time to become venerable after you've gotten to the point of ignoring physical penalties from aging, or... *nod* --Ghostwheel 22:33, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
@Ghostwheel: "he does not heal or recover in any other way that he might be capable of, nor does he age" and "The aeon walker can craft an item while in the now, if he wishes to, following the usual rules for creating that particular kind of item, though, he may only take up to 10 lbs. of items that he created while in the now with him when he leaves it." both go ahead and make two of your issues with the effect be non-existant, unless your worried about the aeon walker getting a masterwork item. Though, as the ability cannot be gained till ecl 9, the highest level spell you can get would be 6th level, and, so, that might bring the wizard down to Rogue level (6th level spells at ecl 20? seriously?)
@Tarman: If you had issue with the Repose of Time ability past that which Ghostwheel pointed out, then, I'm listening, and am interested. Though, as for the Knot of Time comments, I must simply point out the Factotum, and that he gets extra standard actions (multiple at a time) without penalty (and, with a feat, a lot more often), just two level higher than this, and, while it's never been officially stated, I was under the impression that Factotum was considered Rogue level. Knot of Time will only ever let you get 1 extra standard action, 1 extra move action, and 1 extra swift action, at the expense of 6 uses of an ability that, when you get Knot of Time, you have only 5 daily uses of (on top of that, you have to skip your next round entirely, unless you use even more daily uses on top of this). So, in retrospect, I can't really think that Knot of Time is anything but Rogue level, unless the Factotum is deemed to be not Rogue level, in which case, you may have a valid point. As for Tide of Time, as the only reaction I got to my suggestion was positive, and the only people I think might have had a negative response to it are being quiet, I'll edit that in. → Rith (talk) 03:14, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
Because most wondrous items weigh so incredibly much *eyeroll* Also, as long as you have the crafting feats, someone else can cast the spell. --Ghostwheel 03:52, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
I'll get back to you on the repose thing, since it still needs thinkin, but at a minimum you should probably limit that 10lbs of stuff to non-creatures so players don't find a 10lb fey archmage (or a 10lb bag of holding things that you want in a time stop) to get around the other limitations. Alternately, you can just disallow any spells or powers in it at all, which isn't a big deal for the class since they don't have any (or UMD) anyway.
As for the action thing, I just said borrowing from the future was bad, but I probably should have been more specific about it being bad because it assumes a cost that you won't actually pay. If you want to give him extra actions, just do that and be honest and straightforward about it, and balance appropriately. Celerity is also annoying because you can get that action out of turn, which you can do here as well (and I missed last time, though I did talk up Snake's Swiftness and it's 'on your turn' action multiplication and how that was ok). About the only thing stopping you from using your celerity like ability to stop an enemy in it's tracks (on it's turn, before it can do anything to you) while you call up your time stop like ability and drop a ton of unavoidable shit down on whatever is in your way that it then suffers before it can do what it had planned on... is the fact that you don't have a ton of unavoidable shit as class powers... and that's easy enough to correct with gear. I don't care if you can get extra actions, they just need to not take from future actions (false cost) and need to not happen out of turn (essentially enemy turn negation). I have no idea how that works with Factotums, because I never bothered with learning how that bizarre class was supposed to function (and can't be assed to look it up presently).
Lastly, the tide of time thing, it's still fairly strong, and the "skip a turn, no save" thing still sucks, but it's better (and in retrospect, better than my suggestion). Your revised writing now makes you give up your entire full round action to jump ahead of some other dude and give them a full turn or give up a full turn to take a full turn from someone else, so you preserve action economy (mostly), just shuffle it around a bunch. Still, it feels like a tweaked out Foil Action / Special 3.0 Haste hybrid (that's at least daily limited), and those aren't exactly rogue level abilities. I don't know if they boost the class up on their own or not though... - TarkisFlux 05:33, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
Oh, I see the hiccup. Since it's a free action, it's essentially like celerity. That's my fault: I had forgotten to add in the clause during your turn. I'll go fix that. Though, what is the issue of pulling them from the following round? It's not just pulling them from some obscure round that has not come to pass, it's pulling them from the very next round to pass. What would be the issue with that? Also, I see what you mean about the 10 lb. item limit, and how it can be a little funky. Would there be any idea for the crafting part? Perhaps have it be a 1 lb. limit? Or make it be only mundane items? Or make it be only a single item? (Though, a question arrises, what is the problem with having multiple items?) I personally thought Repose of Time had great utility power, as you can essentially travel an infinite distance in no time at all, spy on an enemy without fear of being caught (though, what you could figure out from them just standing still would be limitted), and buy yourself a lot more time to solve a puzzle. → Rith (talk) 02:44, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
If Repose of Time disallowed any spell, spell-like, power, psi-like, whatever from being cast (including duration things) and kept you within a limited radius of the entry point (or required you to leave through the same point) and didn't allow you to bring in people, I think it'd be fine without a weight limit. No matter how small a weight limit is on it you could find a way to bring in stuff you want to use in it or even prisoners (and then have infinite time to interrogate them). Denying spells and people means that the stuff you can bring in isn't relevant most of the time at your level, since you can't magic it up, denying people means you can't do nasty things with them, and keeping the aeon walker tied to the starting point (maybe they can only exit there) means you can't do weird travel things. Which makes it a flavorful, give me forever to think on that and make some minor crap that might help us, ability that I'm not concernd about.
Borrowing from the future is bad in that it assumes a cost you probably will never pay. So it's not bad in itself, it's just pointless to write it that way as it's basically undifferentiable from just getting extra actions. Plus, it makes it actively look like you're sacrificing something that you probably aren't, which makes it look less powerful than it actually is. It's sleight of hand that actively obfuscates the value of the ability when balancing, and so I think it should be avoided all of the time, forever and ever. If you want to give someone extra actions, just do that, and balance appropriately. It's basically the same thing. - TarkisFlux 03:19, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
Well, perhaps I should impose some fundemental change to the Repose of Time ability instead, such as making it not be infinite time, but making it instead be "number of minutes equal to Wisdom modifier", or something, cause, if I impose too many restrictions, the ability just becomes not worth having. I'm open for suggestions on that respect.
Also, the "borrowing from the future" wasn't ever really a core penalty. The ammount of FoT uses used up, was, as well as the number of actions you can gain. The "borrowing from the future" was more of a fluff thing to make it cool and unique, and making the player who goes nova, but fails in whatever he's attempting to do, start sweating in his next turn. That was more of a side penalty to make the ability fun to use, tbh. → Rith (talk) 07:23, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
Ok. I'm gonna actually spell out some of the things I could do with Repose of Time that I think are problematic, because the high level discussion isn't going anywhere. These are things the first effect does better than time stop:
  • You can't be hurt by anything at all, including stationary elemental effects, you can walk through AMF, dead magic zones, whatever. Which just further extends the places you can go and the crap you can pull since even less stops you.
  • Infinite Duration means you seriously have infinite time to craft minor things, or even major things if you have feats and have creatively circumvented the weight limit or otherwise smuggled in someone who can recharge themselves. It also means that you can extra super buff yourself with whatever duration spells you want because there is no chance that you'll fall back into regular time before you're done. Minutes per wis mod is not going to make an appreciable difference on this last point, while it will basically destroy the first point.
  • Infinite Range means you have an awesome travel power, especially since you're walking through the temporal equivalent of the ethereal plane. Even if you can't walk through walls or climb on air, which is pretty unclear since I don't know what the "status" of a material wall or the atmosphere is, you don't need to breath or eat or sleep or anything and can walk basically anywhere you have time to reach. Combined with the Infinite Duration means you can go basically anywhere, and you have an unblockable self-only greater teleport. If the duration is only minutes per wis mod, you still have a long range unblockable D-Door that doesn't leave you hurting afterwards.
About the only thing the first effect does worse than time stop is that you can't drop instantaneous spells on yourself. Yay? So aside from the fact that it's effectively a combination scry and teleport and infinite prep time, well, no, actually there is no aside, it's just bad. Setting the duration to minutes doesn't do near enough to fix it since it's still an awesome travel / recon / buff power. It can't be all of those and be anywhere near rogue level. Killing the spells in it entirely, making people leave where they came in, and cutting the duration to something non-infinite still leaves it an awesome recon power. Which goes much better with the awesome crafting / travel power that the 2nd ability is (since it includes everyone near you the second one isn't any good for buffing for nearby opponents) and the very solid invulnerability / precog power that the 3rd ability is.
If you want to charge them an action on the following turn you can do that, but you'd better not use that as a justification for why the ability is worth less than a simple extra action. Setting it on your turn deals with the other issue. - TarkisFlux 18:26, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

→ Revertin', revertin', revertin' on the railroad.

Hmmm, I can see what you mean, and you have a good few points. Though, as I can't think of anything better off the top of my head, currently, I'll just take your advice and make a few edits in an hour or two, once I've got the wording figured out to my liking. → Rith (talk) 03:50, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

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